‘To strive, to seek, to find’, with Stasha Toncev

[00:00 - 00:22] Welcome to Nourish by Spinneys, the podcast which promises to inspire you to eat well and live well. I'm Tiffany Eslick. And I'm Devina Divecha. Welcome to a space where we hope to nourish your heart and your soul. On this show, we chat with leading players in the food community, from farmers to foodies, 

[00:22 - 00:45] as well as health and well-being experts. It's all about engaging conversations and fresh ideas. Today, we're chatting with Stasha Toncev, who is the founder of 21 Grams, which describes itself as an urban Balkan bistro. It's one of those places where you just walk in and feel like there's something special going on there. They've won several awards since they opened, including a listing in Gault & Millieu, 50 Best Discovery, the Financial 

[00:45 - 01:10] Times How to Spend It, and were just awarded Time Out Best Breakfast in 2023. All of this begins with her title. She calls herself their Chief Soul Kitchen Officer. I don't know if you actually know this, but I go to 21 Grams about once a month for my book club. We've never felt the need to change our location. You know, there's great tea, great coffee. And I personally love the phyllo pie. And the team is always 

[01:10 - 01:32] so lovely to us. You know, if I have to sum up today's episode, and just about all my chats with Stasia, really, it's how creativity thrives when you're driven by purpose. Whenever I think of you, I think of that line from Tennyson's Ulysses thing, which is to strive to seek to find and not to yield, because you like this creative force. And 

[01:32 - 01:57] I know when I was chatting to Chirag now, before we sat down, he was like, you know, the minute you walked into the restaurant, you had 21 grams, everything just lifted. And I wanted to know, like, where do you get your energy from? Because whenever I, yeah, whenever I'm around you, you just exude this energy. Wow, that's a good question. And I get to ask myself that a lot. And honestly, I don't 

[01:57 - 02:22] know. But what I like to think is really that comes from, from something that, you know, if I may say, I'm born with. But as well, I know that I find my energy from connection with people. But as well, through something that I believe I have, which is that drive 

[02:22 - 02:43] to really seek, I really have like that great thirst for life, for real things, for things that you can feel deeply that move you, that steer your soul, that's very moving. This is what drives me and that's what makes me get up from the bed in the morning. And if 

[02:43 - 03:05] there is such a thing ahead of me, then I go for it. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, give it to me. Just send me the energy. Yeah, I mean, like, just just last night, like, let me tell you a story. So I last night, obviously, knowing that today we have this podcast, and it's very important, I was very excited about that. I said, like, okay, I'm going to bed time, I'm going to try to fall 

[03:05 - 03:34] asleep on time, get up in the morning fresh and ready for this. And then what happened? Full moon, I really struggled to, to fall asleep. And eventually it did. And then I guess one hour or two hours later, I got that little mosquito that did all terrible things for some time. Then I had to get up, switch on the lights, kill it. And then when I went 

[03:34 - 03:58] back to bed, I still couldn't, couldn't fall asleep. And probably some people would get frustrated or like, you know, just things are not going their way. I just sat in my bed and I just told to myself, like, Oh, probably this is not just night meant for sleeping. But also I can do, can I read? Can I just stare at my ceiling? But one thing 

[03:58 - 04:20] is for sure, I won't be frustrated person because things are not going my way. So it's like, you know, when things don't go right, I go left and I go that way effortlessly. I just like make my peace with the things that they're not as they should be, or as I imagined them to be. And I just find a way around that. So I didn't get much of the 

[04:20 - 04:43] sleep, but as well, I woke up this morning and everything was fine. And I'm not as bad as someone would expect it from a person who slept just a couple of hours. Yeah. That's such a great way of looking at things. And actually, it's like a lesson from the universe because today I was in a foul mood before I got here. Obviously walking into a beautiful space calmed me down, but yeah, like don't get so frustrated about 

[04:43 - 05:05] little things, right? It's a good way of looking as well. Like, Oh, tonight's just not a night for sleep. I think I'm going to try that instead of like, you do toss and turn and I get you with the full moon. That's that gets me every time. So, um, I thought that maybe what we could do, I mean, we've chatted a lot. Um, I've been fortunate enough to interview you a few times and just hang out with you and as friends, but for those who 

[05:05 - 05:33] don't know about your background, a little bit about your childhood. I mean, I remember that you in cooking since you were like seven years old, I think you told us, but when we did the cookbook, um, so yeah, like how, yeah. Tell me a bit about growing up. Okay. So if there is anyone that doesn't know, I come from Serbia. I grew up in Serbia. Um, I came to Dubai now 14 years ago. Um, while growing up in Serbia, I grew up between my 

[05:33 - 06:00] hometown of Assad and the countryside where my parents come from. And my grandparents lived, um, at the time, um, I grew up basically, um, on fields and under the farm with animals eating fruits and vegetables straight from the tree, from the ground, very organically. Um, and I really had, um, a beautiful childhood. Um, I was, um, and I am 

[06:00 - 06:23] the youngest child, um, in the family, the baby and I'm like, uh, one of these children that came very late. So all my siblings are, uh, quite older than me. So I was the baby 100%, someone who was really, um, looked after and taking care of with a lot of love. 

[06:23 - 06:48] Did you learn how to play that baby card? Cause I'm convinced my brother did. Uh, he's the youngest. No, but what that baby cards, if you like to call it that way, um, really brought to me is that I know how to fight for myself because, you know, having so many older, uh, siblings, you always feel that, you know, you don't get what you deserve. Uh, that could be 

[06:48 - 07:09] probably the feeling that, um, I got the most, uh, when I was really young and that I really had to fight for what I thought, you know, I should get what I deserve, which is a good life, uh, life lesson to, to sort of understand that we need to work for the 

[07:09 - 07:30] things and that things are not, are simply given to us. And that somehow we need to deserve them. And then only if we get them by that, um, but that rule, we are able to enjoy them and then they actually mean something. So that was like, you know, 

[07:31 - 07:54] somehow my childhood that's where from one side I was very protected, very, very loved. Uh, but at the same time I had, I got that space, I got that room not to just turn into one spoiled child. Uh, and I was quite independent. My, my parents, um, were business owners as well. So they obviously spend a lot of time out of the house. Uh, my 

[07:54 - 08:16] sister is 10 years older than me. So already when I, when I was like seven, eight years old, she was a teenager. She was going out a lot. So I was home alone for, for a lot of my, um, childhood. And then one day, um, and creative as I am, as, as I was even at that time, um, one day 

[08:16 - 08:43] I thought like, it would be a good idea to try cook something. And I started cooking from my mom's magazines and trying, at least I tried to do that. Obviously I was not allowed to, to be in the kitchen and, you know, use the stove and oven and whatnot, but I still did. So I was a little rebel as well. Um, and, um, what is the best part of it? It's not that they started cooking 

[08:43 - 09:05] very early, but that I understood what cooking and food mean to me because the first time I got, or I thought that they got, um, a dish right. I didn't just sit down and enjoy it myself. I invited all the kids from my neighborhood. Of course. And we did, and we did a little party at, 

[09:05 - 09:26] at my kitchen, at my super tiny kitchen that time. And we continued doing that. So I would come from school. I would cook. I would get the kids at my table. I would be super proud. I would be, um, super happy and content that I'm sharing with them. Something that I made, uh, that 

[09:27 - 09:53] made all of us happy and that we just simply gathered. Um, and I've been doing that for some time until my parents found out and I was grounded for some time, but that didn't stop. Again, I continued doing that by age of nine, I was cooking already proper meals, like name it's traditional dishes, Italian dishes. I was that little foodie and little cook that no one expected 

[09:53 - 10:14] from a child. I think I was only, could only make cheese puffs when I was nine. Like many kids, but yeah, I could cook properly and I enjoyed it. And then by the, by my teenage, um, time, I was really, uh, someone who lived and breathed the food and cooking and gathering 

[10:14 - 10:38] people, which is more important than any of, you know, just food itself or cooking. I was 100% into that. And did you know that you always wanted to have a rest, like an official restaurant or not? Okay. It was not on the table at all. See like, uh, where I come from being a chef has never been a really, uh, thing you want for your child, to be very honest, it's never been 

[10:38 - 10:59] looked as a profession more as a vocation. And my parents at the same time, never, ever took that talent as, um, as a talent, as something to be nourished. They thought it's awesome. They supported me as much as they can, but it was never, um, a thing that, um, I was given idea 

[10:59 - 11:19] it should be taken further. So I started economics marketing. That was kind of the, the, the road paved for me. Um, yeah, what was it? What was the question? Did you know that you always wanted to have a restaurant? Exactly. So not, not, not really. I just always knew that I want to cook 

[11:19 - 11:44] and I was cooking like very naturally and organically. That was, I probably took it for granted as like part of my personality of parts of someone who I am. Um, and never pursued like to, to do it professionally. Absolutely not. At one point of time, many, many people would come to me and say like, Stasha, you really have to do something about 

[11:44 - 12:08] why don't you open a restaurant? Why you, why don't you do this or that? Write cookbooks, do workshops, do something about that supper club. Like, but just do it because if you don't, I like people really think I would do something very wrong in my life to myself. So that's made me thinking, but it's, it's, uh, I was still far, far of away from the idea of opening a 

[12:08 - 12:34] restaurant, especially, uh, especially not in, in Dubai. That was, that was not on the table really. And how did you take that brave step? Like, yes, it happened. What gave you that confidence? And again, the energy to do this. I always say the 21 grams came to me. It came organically, but it came for certain reasons. And one of the reasons, yes, that's, I cooked, I never been a 

[12:34 - 13:00] chef, but they cooked and I'm loving that, that, um, I'm loving, um, bringing people together over the food. That's one thing. Second is that, uh, when it came to Dubai, um, I was working in a high-end restaurants. Um, I've seen how things are done. Um, I learned so many things. I got some insights into the market here. So that gave me sort of the business perspective, uh, to things I like to do. 

[13:01 - 13:28] Um, at the same time, being a Balkan, uh, human being in Dubai, um, confirmed to me that Balkan cuisine has a huge potential, um, that somehow it needs just a bit of that, uh, fairy mother magic to go off to the bowl. Um, so the combination of me loving where I come from, uh, really, uh, 

[13:28 - 13:53] honoring my roots, um, the fact that they love the food, people connections, music, art design, um, and the fact that I have a hospitality background are the components that are the part of the recipe that gave me the confidence and then courage to, to start with 20 bucks. 

[13:53 - 14:15] But really it came to me. Um, that is obviously a story. Yeah. Seven years ago I had what I thought ideal life. I got a job that I enjoyed. I was paid well. I had plenty of free time. And one day I've got a call. I got a call from a person that I used to work with before. Um, 

[14:15 - 14:38] and he told me the following, Hey, Stasha, I'm opening a small boutique hotel in Jamira, just 21 rooms. Um, and we are looking for someone to take over the tiny restaurant, tiny place, 25 seats, mostly breakfast and lunch. Um, I'm not really willing to operate it, um, myself. Do you know someone I know like you, you used to work in hospitality to have anyone. 

[14:38 - 15:02] And I said like, listen, I have no idea, but let me, let me, um, ask around. And that was at that time when people were telling me like, you know, you have to do something about that. It was exactly the end. And it was the time. And it was a very vocal about what's happening in the hospitality industry and that I'm not happy with certain things that things could be done differently 

[15:02 - 15:25] and better and whatnot. And that night I came home and, um, I told to my husband, I told him, listen, you know, I just got this call. Do we know someone, uh, he looked at me and he was like, you woman, you like me? No way. And he goes like, think about it. Think about all the things you've 

[15:25 - 15:46] been doing so far, all the things you be, uh, you, you've been talking about and being very vocal about now you get your chance. Now you get your platform to do things as you think they might work and they would be better than they are. Here is your chance. Sleep, sleep on it. Let me know what 

[15:46 - 16:13] you think tomorrow. It should be you. Well, the rest is history. Can you tell us, I know it's somewhere on your website, but what does the name mean? Okay. There is a theory, uh, that says that, um, 21 grams is the weight of human soul. Um, obviously that was a theory long time ago when a 

[16:13 - 16:35] scientist, which I believe was in 1906. And it was a kind of official theory for a while. In the meantime, it just became the urban myth, but yeah, the, the background of 21 grams is the idea of the weight of human soul. Um, but at the same time, 21 degrees is the longitude of the Balkan region. 

[16:35 - 17:02] So I believe that these things really nicely sum up our idea of being a Balkan soul food place. Absolutely. I didn't know that second part. So Balkan and soul food, Balkan and soul came into, into this. When we come back, I asked Stasha why she's never been tempted to take on any of Dubai's 

[17:02 - 17:27] staples. You know, I love them, but you see every cafe have avocados and truffles on their menu. That's right after the short break. Welcome back. This is Nourish by Spinneys. I'm Tiffany Eslick, and you're listening to my conversation with Stasha Toncev, who is the founder of 21 Grams. I remember when I first went to, it was the Park Regis, the name, right? 

[17:27 - 17:52] Yes, Park Regis Boutique Hotel, yeah. And just around the corner. It was a late afternoon on the weekend and I went in for a late lunch. And I think it was Sam, FooDiva, was sitting in the corner with her husband and I was with Nadia from Melange. And I just, and we ordered like your dip platters and that's when I found your chicken liver pate and the light was coming in beautifully. And I just thought your design was so different at the time to like any small little cafe that was popping up. And I just thought, 

[17:52 - 18:14] oh my gosh, this is my place, you know, and I was hooked. I think you, yeah, it was the first time that I'd actually tried some Balkan food as well. But the space that you had created there, like all your new spaces as well, it is full of soul. Like when you say, you know, from the music to the art, the design, do you make a conscious effort with everything now that you've set up, 

[18:14 - 18:39] like this place, your new taste away? Are you always also concerned about the ambience and the design and the art? Is everything equally as important? Equally, absolutely. Because I never thought I'm creating a space. I was always creating a place, a place to be. And for a place to be one of these is all these things are equally important. But the 

[18:39 - 19:03] good thing about that, I always did it quite effortlessly. And that's something that gave me a lot of joy. Once people start recognizing and loving it, they actually loved me through that place because everything at 21 Grams is me. And I always try to be very honest, very transparent 

[19:04 - 19:27] to bring to people things that I admire. But overall, it's an energy. I truly believe in an energy. And when the energy comes from the right place, which is usually either heart or soul or both, ideally, then it's easy to be loved. It's easy to be recognized. It's always hard to 

[19:27 - 19:52] define. It's always hard to describe. So I think that people would come to us very often and they would like certain things, but they are not really able to define what is it. They would just say, you know, 21 Grams is beautiful. Whether they fall in love with the food, with the taste of our food or the plate it's served in or the music or whatever, but all together, that's 21 Grams. 

[19:52 - 20:13] And 21 Grams is this huge ball of energy, but not just my energy. It's our collective energy. So it's me. It's my team that I always try to make them feel good. That they first of all feel at home 

[20:13 - 20:38] at 21 Grams. So they're able to transfer that feeling and that emotion to everyone who is coming through this door. You can really tell that with the team. Like when I've been here, not that they're like your kids, but you feel like a family, honestly. Like when you're interacting with everyone, you all seem so close and genuinely close, you know? They are. They're absolutely. And again, I know it might 

[20:38 - 21:04] sound as a cliche, but listen, this is the owner operated business. I spend here 10, 12, 14 hours a day, almost every single day. If I don't make this place a happy place for myself, if I don't make my people happy people, what I'm doing and why I'm here. Right. So, and but, you know, it's a 

[21:04 - 21:29] two-way street. It's not just their responsibility to be great people or a great team. It's my responsibility. It comes from me. And I wake up with that responsibility every morning to, to make it, to make it happen. So, you know, leave all the cliches, leave all the, you know, affirmation messages or whatnot. It's if nothing else, it's for a very selfish reason that I want to love. 

[21:29 - 21:56] And I want to be loved. Simple as that. And everyone in between. Yeah. And everything in between. I wanted to ask you, I mean, talking about authenticity. So some food has arrived, which this is one of my favorite things. This filo pie, you know, it's the goat cheese and honey is just gorgeous, but you've always stuck to your guns. So you have never, you have no caviar, 

[21:56 - 22:21] avocado, truffle, burgers, ever, pizza, nothing. Has it been tough like doing that and, you know, keep sort of like only putting out, you know, Balkan cuisine and do people ask like, oh, I want avocado. Have you, or you, yeah. Has it been easy to stick to your guns and do what you set out to do? In full honesty, I think actually it was easy because sticking to your guts is the 

[22:21 - 22:50] best thing you can do and it should be easy. And it was easy. Now, educating people, sort of bringing them onto your page was sort of difficult. That painful process of bringing something different, something that is real deal to the table, as much as that is always 

[22:50 - 23:12] appreciated as idea, in reality is not always easy to present. It was quite fast because all these values, they came together. People recognize them. People relate to them. And from one point, 

[23:12 - 23:34] which was probably just first year, people took it as it is and they love it for what it is. And, you know, getting all these awards and recognitions is a beautiful thing, especially when you know how you started, where you started, how hard it was, all the battles you 

[23:34 - 24:02] had to fought, all the messages you had to send, all the explanations you had to give. But at the end of the day, the biggest award that we got is that we have become a loved restaurant, a loved place, a loved team. And that's just more than a multi-award winning restaurant or multi-award 

[24:02 - 24:25] winning business. Well done. Thank you. And especially for the things that people never heard of before. And very often when I joke, I say like, can you count how many times Dubai said Balkan before and after 21 grams? How many times they said burek, cevapi, sarma, piaskovica? 

[24:25 - 24:52] And the best part is that today they know what does this mean. Are you genuinely proud of what you've done as a person? Do you take time to think I've done this? I am super uber proud of what we've done. It doesn't show all the time. I do have my doubts. I do have my hard moments. It's not really all the roses and people know that. And I'm just a human 

[24:52 - 25:17] being. So I need to learn a lot and I'm learning a lot every single day. But if you give me a moment to think of things that we've done, then, and if I sit with that idea, I'm coming out with 100% pride and gratitude for everything. What do you think on your menu people should try if they 

[25:17 - 25:40] somehow have never been to 21 grams? I don't want to say top three dishes, but just something that is really, what's all unique, but yeah, what do you want people to try firsthand? Filo pies. Definitely. And they probably, in my opinion, are number one because we are one of the rare restaurants that still do them from scratch. That is one of the traditions and the concept 

[25:40 - 26:02] that's slowly dying. Even back home in Serbia, it's super hard to find bakeries and places that still do everything properly from A to Z. And we know why is that because it's hard. It's really, really hard first to find the people that know how to do it, right? The bakers that still honoring 

[26:02 - 26:25] these traditions, that's one. But once you find it, just to practice this skill, this to excel in it, it takes time. It takes so much, so much effort. But this is one of the things that we are absolutely not giving up. We want to serve the real deal, the real thing. We want to do it properly 

[26:25 - 26:49] and to show it to the world in the best possible light. Did the recipe come from your grandmother or as a family recipe? No, this one is definitely not. And this recipe and the filo pie that you are enjoying now, it was really a process. Just our initial recipe, when we were opening 

[26:49 - 27:11] 21 grams, took us six months to find the right flour. And then from there, it was constantly a work in progress. This pie that you're having today is not the same pie that we served five years ago. So the recipe was always the same. The technique that we used in principle is the same, 

[27:11 - 27:35] but I think we excelled in that. So it's definitely better than it used to be. I was saying to Ankit and my team that I wanted to come and you kindly said I could come and work in your kitchen sometimes, just because I wanted to learn. And he was like, whatever you do, get that recipe for the filo pie. I was like, I'm not going to just rip off this recipe. 

[27:35 - 27:56] We can give and share this recipe anytime from A to Z. There is no secrets about it. You can even Google it. But there is something in this pie, I don't want to call it love or anything, but there is something, there is a magic in this pie that you can't, you have to discover it for 

[27:56 - 28:19] yourself. It doesn't come with a recipe. There is time you need to invest and then here you go. Absolutely. It's my go-to. Well, I'm a timeout marketer here. Welcome. Ahtland by Ahtland, anytime. We already discussed that. So yeah, the pie is one thing on the menu that I would always recommend, but there is Urburek. These are all filo pastries, just a 

[28:19 - 28:40] different way of folding and fillings. But I love to recommend Sarma. Sarma is our very traditional dish. It's called princess of the Balkan cuisine. It's something that you will find always on our table during the festive season. Again, it calls for a very simple ingredients, 

[28:40 - 29:09] but the process is not as simple as it might sound. First, we need to ferment cabbage. That's a serious process. And once you have the fermented cabbage, then we roll it with the minced beef, it's slowly cooked. There is a lot of dried meat, smoked meat that we cook it with. But what I love about this, it gives you so much flavor. And I like to say it's a mommy 

[29:09 - 29:33] dish of Balkan cuisine. Okay. Yeah, that's a nice way of calling it. Yeah. Should we eat? Yes. Do you want a piece? Do you eat this pie every day? I don't, but I love to share it with other people. Music is so common. I'll send you the link to the playlist. Yes, please do. Do you create all your own 

[29:33 - 29:58] playlist or does the team get to choose? No one gets to choose the music in 21 Grands, but we sign it. I'm very protective over the music. It's very important to me. I'm very sensitive to it as well. I keep it just for myself. I think that's okay. Here's a plate. You won't be munching in the mic. No place, no cutlery. 

[29:59 - 30:28] I'm just going to carry on eating. I have one last question, which we ask everybody, which is what, you know, our podcast is called Nourish. What nourishes your soul? What nourishes my soul? Moments like this. Some real moments with people, moments in nature, moments with horses, moments with dogs. Yeah, that nourishes my soul. 

[30:28 - 30:48] Dare I ask if there's anything else on the cards? Because I know you've just opened your taste away at Elseacle. You've got Time Out, you've got this, the roof garden, or the urban farm. Is there anything else bubbling? We do a lot of caterings. Yeah. Yes. So we are all around town with our catering services, with events as well. We 

[30:48 - 31:09] just finished the Sika at Bastakia. There is always something going on. And the best part of it is that as much as I plan, things always come in their own way, in their own order. And I love how it goes. 

[31:09 - 31:32] I really try to stay open for anything that probably I couldn't even think of. Mostly, the 21 grams, many people ask me, what's your plan for expansion? What you're doing next? What you're doing now? And for me, it's always that question that is so hard to be answered. And it 

[31:32 - 31:54] might seem that I'm maybe a leader, a business owner without a vision, without a goal, and made me question myself so many times because I never had that clear picture that 21 grams should be on so many locations and should be open regionally and worldwide. And I always wonder 

[31:55 - 32:26] if I'm feeling the right thing. And one day, or probably a couple of days and weeks, I sat with myself and really tried to figure out what I want for 21 grams. And I just know for a fact that I want 21 grams to be a good, loved restaurant for a long time, to stay here in Dubai for a long time. 

[32:27 - 32:51] That's the ultimate goal. What's going to happen in between to help us make this happen? I keep it open, but ultimate goal is this. Well, staying for a long time is an excellent goal. And I think there's a lot in that because if you plan every second of every thing that you're going to be doing, you miss out on those 

[32:51 - 33:12] things, those spontaneous things that can come in. It's life. It's a lesson to know in life. As we got to learn today, 21 grams was made of very spontaneous moments. So, staying true to ourselves and doing things spontaneously, not recklessly, not without 

[33:12 - 33:41] the plan in a sense that once we do things, we just let them be or go as they are. Then we work really hard, both planning and organizing. But while you're doing that is way more important than the rest of the things. So, I know the word soul came up a lot on this episode, but that really was a soulful episode. 

[33:41 - 34:05] I suppose that's what drives us and the show too. And why we love asking our guests what nourishes their soul. Yeah, I was telling her how she makes even horse riding romantic, and she was quick to point out how it really isn't. This is one of these moments, Instagram versus reality. Most of the time is just me learning a lot, getting a lot of instructions and corrections from my 

[34:05 - 34:30] trainer. There is a lot of work on myself physically, mentally, and emotionally. But I'm so happy I'm doing that. I'm very, very happy. And especially that's the time when I slow down, when I switch off, which is very rare otherwise. So, it's beautiful. I'm going to this farm where 

[34:30 - 34:51] I spend time learning something new, being beginner, which is again, something that I love. I have not been beginner for a long time. And it's a really nice change. It can be scary. The older we get to be a beginner at something. This is the moment when you again have to gather courage for something and where you have to open 

[34:51 - 35:17] yourself to learn or just open up yourself. That's just, you know, that preposition that sometimes we forget how to do it. I think that we always should find that one thing that give us the beginner's mindset. This episode was brought to you by Spinneys and is hosted by me, Devina Divecha and Tiffany Eslick.

[35:17 - 35:37] We're produced by Chirag Desai with artwork by Michelle Clements and Gehane Youssef. You can follow Spinneys on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok for more and visit us at spinneys.com where you can shop for fresh produce and a variety of local and exclusive products. We'll be back in two weeks and you can listen to our conversation with Michelle and Bill Johnson of Pitfire Pizza. 

[35:37 - 35:39] See you then!