“Dubai is like a millefeuille. There are layers and layers.” Mohamed Maktabi on the rich history of his family’s business and his passion for storytelling through the intricate artistry of carpets

Mohamed Maktabi
[00:00 - 00:29] I feel most of my nieces and nephews actually look up to the business and have this emotional attachment and this pride in Iwan Maktabi.

Hashem Montasser
Your business is so, and I'm going to weave it into weave it into the conversation about this further direction.

Mohamed Maktabi
My hometown is Beirut and I'm always a little bit homesick for Beirut of course. I think you also adore Cairo even if you don't want to live there today. We love the chaos, we love the aj'aa, we love the...

Hashem Montasser
For five days.

Hashem Montasser
[00:37 - 01:16] Welcome to the Lighthouse Conversations. This is a podcast featuring entrepreneurs and tastemakers from the worlds of arts, culture, tech, and food. I'm your host Hesham Montasser. If you're joining us for the first time today, hit the follow button in your podcast player to get alerted when we have a brand new episode. If you're using Apple Podcasts for example, it's the plus sign in the top right corner. If you're using Apple Podcasts for example, it's the plus sign in the top right corner. If you're using Apple Podcasts for example, it's the plus sign in the top right corner. If you're using You can also listen to our extensive catalog of previous episodes in your podcast app or on our website at thelighthouse.ae slash podcast. This is my attempt to enunciate. I'm joined today by
[01:16 - 01:51] Mohamed Maktabi, the CEO of Iwan Maktabi, a third generation business that was started by his grandfather, Hessein Maktabi, who emigrated from Iran and reached Lebanon through Syria in 1911. We talk about how the business has evolved since then, how the business has evolved since then, how the family's second brand, Iwan Maktabi, started out and continues to evolve and thrive to this day. We also talk about why he decided to move to Dubai after the 2020 Beirut explosion. Mohamed, so nice to have you here. It's nice to be here. This has been a long time coming.
[01:51 - 02:31] I've been obviously following you and following your family's business for many, many years. We're reminiscing about the early days, well not early so much, but some, you know, way back over 10 years in Beirut I want to start at this particular point because your family history is so intertwined with the region's history in many ways. I was going to say just Lebanon, but it's actually not the case as you've educated me. So it actually has been intertwined with a lot of what's happened in the region, good and bad. So let's get from a starting point when you started with this business. At the time, your father was in charge of the business?

Mohamed Maktabi
[02:33 - 02:52] With his siblings, yes. And they were second generation? They were second generation. So the first generation was my grandfather who immigrated from Isfahan in Iran to Syria because he used to do commerce between Baghdad and Damascus. So he immigrated there and then from there moved to Beirut.

Hashem Montasser
[02:52 - 02:54] What year did he move to Beirut? In 1911.

Mohamed Maktabi
[02:55 - 03:16] Okay, wow. Okay. So this is where my father was born en route in Damascus, but the rest of his brothers, in total, were born in Beirut. So that was, my grandfather was the first generation, my fathers and his brothers were the second generation, and then me and my five sisters

Hashem Montasser
[03:16 - 03:29] are the third generation. And the business obviously started like a lot of trading businesses, which makes sense. So they were sourcing probably mostly from Iran, bringing to the Levant and selling as one would.

Mohamed Maktabi
[03:29 - 04:03] I have a memory of a letter. I saw with my father that was written by my grandfather, and that was to be sent to a provider in Kashan. So my grandfather was ordering, I want, for example, 10 Kashan carpets, dark and blue, in size 3x2. I want 15 in this size. So it was like a commodity. Yeah, yeah. They were not seeing the carpets or inspecting them. There were certain types and they were ordering them. And they were bringing them to the Levant.

Hashem Montasser
[04:03 - 04:08] You were selling them at the time, trade sales, or was there always a retail shop from the beginning?

Mohamed Maktabi
[04:08 - 04:43] No, Beirut stores were either in the free zone, in the port of Beirut, where there were a lot of tourists coming all over the world and buying carpets, and they were being shipped all over the world, or retail store in Hamra district, Hamra in Beirut. So the company was called Hussain Maktabi and Sons, Hussain being my grandfather, and his sons. And I remember when I was a kid, we used to go there, there were like huge buses filled with each bus with like 50 tourists. They would stop by the shop at the entrance of the shop
[04:43 - 05:19] and would go down and they would go in like, they would go, they would go, and the sales people would go with like packs of Pepsi and 7up open for them and give everybody one like this. And then they would sit. My father would give a talk on the carpets. This is a very typical Turkish carpet. This is a Persian carpet. Everybody would choose one. They would be packed. They would pay on by credit card, like the old way. And then they would be packed. They would write on every package by hand, the name of the, and the address of the person.
[05:19 - 05:30] So there was going to Norway, going to the USA, going to Canada, going to Switzerland. So this was the early seventies, the business, this was from Beirut to all over the world.

Hashem Montasser
[05:30 - 05:38] And did you spend, you and your siblings? A lot of time in the shop. What was your first early exposure to this business?

Mohamed Maktabi
[05:38 - 06:03] So I used to go as a kid during my vacation time. This was my playground. So I would go jump on the stacks of carpets. And then in the afternoon I would eat and then I would sleep. I would nap. And then I would go back with my father at home in the evening. So I had like my bike outside the store and I would play. But so it was ingrained. Was it ingrained?

Other speaker
[06:03 - 06:05] Was it ingrained in all of you or you as the male heir?

Mohamed Maktabi
[06:05 - 06:11] So funny enough, it was, I was the only son to five. Was both. That's what I meant.

Hashem Montasser
[06:11 - 06:16] So, so I was the one who went to be groomed as the heir apparent.

Mohamed Maktabi
[06:17 - 06:55] Fast forward to 95, my father was quite the open-minded person and he had a lot of ideas, a lot of projects in his mind. They were all carpet related. So he wanted to do tribal carpets. He wanted to do antique and obscure carpets. And he wanted to do a lot of things. His brothers were more rigid in the, in the sense of the mother, the mother company. And I was back then working for the mother company with my cousins. We were all working. I was based in Saudi Arabia and Riyadh. We had a shop in Switzerland. We had a, we used to sell
[06:55 - 07:13] wholesale for all of Europe, but I was based in Riyadh. My father decides he cannot wait anymore. For his dreams to come true. So he opens a small shop, calls it Iwan Makdavi and puts my two sisters there and fills it with tribal carpets and nomadic carpets.

Hashem Montasser
[07:13 - 07:14] All the things he couldn't do.

Mohamed Maktabi
[07:15 - 07:20] From his travels. Yeah. Why Iwan? This is his choice of a name.

Hashem Montasser
[07:20 - 07:21] I was going to ask you.

Mohamed Maktabi
[07:21 - 07:58] Was very particular. He went to a professor of Arabic literature in UBE and asked him, he told him, we are originally from Iran, but we are in the Middle East. And I was living in Beirut. I need to open a carpet shop for my daughters. What shall I call it? I don't want to call Abbas Makdavi and sons like my father did. He said, Iwan Kisra was the throne room of the Shah of Iran that was run over by the Arabs. It was the only, the first Persian Shah and Persian empire capital that was run over by the Arabs.
[07:58 - 08:32] The Arabs went inside the Iwan, the throne room of Iran. Kisra Anusharwan. And they discovered a great carpet that was adorning the throne room. It was so beautiful and filled and inside it, there were precious stones embedded in it. They cut it and took it back home to Arabia. And Al-Buhthuri and other poets mentioned this carpet, which was called the spring of Khosrow in their poetry. So the Iwan was the first place where Persian and Arab cultures intertwined. Intertwined.
[08:32 - 08:40] And the story of a carpet came out of it. Your name should be Iwan Makdavi and hence the name.

Hashem Montasser
[08:41 - 08:48] So, so this was on the side. And then what happened? Did the two businesses just separate completely? Did one die out?

Mohamed Maktabi
[08:48 - 09:13] So he took a small shop in Verdun and classically it's a male dominated business. Come on. There were these two girls, Mona and Zana, fresh out of college selling carpets. Putting their touch, doing a beautiful window display while we and other carpet entities were just, you know, stacking carpets. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The old school way.

Hashem Montasser
[09:13 - 09:13] The old school.

Mohamed Maktabi
[09:14 - 09:46] The business took off immediately. All of Beirut, they were, I won't say lining up, but like everybody was snatching. Every time they put a nice window display, people go and say, but I buy this. Where did this go? I want it. So I was between both businesses. I was helping my sisters because they didn't have experience in operating a business. So I would take off like a day ago and said, okay, let's do this. This is how you need to do the stock. This is how you need to do the accounting. This is how you do the bank account, stuff like that. And then
[09:47 - 10:05] the business grew so big and I was in Riyadh and I felt that I was needed in Iwan. So I told my father, I'll take one year off sabbatical from the mother company. I will go. Let me help my sisters. Let us. Put some processes in the business and then I'll return. I never looked back.

Hashem Montasser
[10:06 - 10:06] That was it?

Mohamed Maktabi
[10:07 - 10:10] That was it. I was a hundred percent Iwan.

Hashem Montasser
[10:10 - 10:12] And that other business is still there?

Mohamed Maktabi
[10:12 - 10:34] So the other business eventually, so the rest of the cousins, like the uncles and the cousins slowly, slowly, it withered away like 10 years. So everybody left like we did and opened something different or then they lost interest. Some cousins were like, oh, we're going to do this. We're not interested. They went into media. They went into tech and stuff like that.

Hashem Montasser
[10:34 - 10:59] That's an amazing story. I mean, it tells you also. So this is actually a great example of what I feel as an outsider, you and your siblings have done with this business since. Essentially, a constant process of reinvention. You know, you went from, as you said, the stacking of the carpets, wholesale, old school style to curation, essentially with window display, et cetera.

Mohamed Maktabi
[10:59 - 11:00] Well said. Yeah.

Hashem Montasser
[11:00 - 11:13] You know, and then you, you, you started introducing contemporary alongside traditional carpentry and rare and all and antiques and all of that. Right. So basically what we, we had our ear close to the ground. So we'd always

Mohamed Maktabi
[11:13 - 11:42] listen to what our clients, our clients were reacting to whatever we were offering. So, but it all started really with the vision of my father to follow what he loves. That was really the beginning. So we were trying, so when we would travel, we would travel to the country, we would travel to the country, we would travel to the country, we would, I would seek like my father was seeking for something unusual, rare, not seen, and just go deep into it and not rely on something usual and classical.

Hashem Montasser
[11:42 - 11:50] But you are procuring. And I want to make the difference here that it was mostly procuring, whether it's rare or special, as opposed to producing.

Mohamed Maktabi
[11:50 - 11:57] So we started, yes, we started providing, we started selling our clients pre-existing carpets from tribes, from cities.

Hashem Montasser
[11:57 - 11:59] You're giving me something I haven't seen.

Mohamed Maktabi
[11:59 - 12:03] That tell the story. Yeah. And we were not creating.

Hashem Montasser
[12:04 - 12:09] That's what I mean. As we advance, as we advance, and we started growing the business more and more,

Mohamed Maktabi
[12:09 - 12:48] and we started working with a lot of architects and the interior architects and decorators are important for our business because a lot of clients, when they have a new house, they ask for an interior architect to come and help them for decoration or some projects. They need an interior architect to, uh, to choose the carpets for this project. So, so we were working with more professionals, not only homeowners, and they were asking for things that were difficult to find. So I would go kill myself and find this rare, unseen antique Serapi in a specific size with ivory background or without the medallion, because most of the carpets had a medallion.
[12:48 - 13:18] I kill myself. I say, yes, here you are. I found it for you. He goes next week. He comes and says, I need another one the same. I said, are you serious? This is a new one. This is unique. This is a one off. How can I get you another one? I want more of the unique. So basically they were asking for a look that could be repeated and then to be changed according to their needs. So the need to have a bespoke business just emerged, emerged.

Hashem Montasser
[13:18 - 13:19] Yeah, it was a need.

Mohamed Maktabi
[13:19 - 13:35] I went to Nepal and I started, uh, doing like the rest of the big American companies who are in the carpet business is create our own designs. And the part because Nepal has a very old tradition of carpet weaving coming from Tibet.

Hashem Montasser
[13:35 - 13:36] Interesting.

Mohamed Maktabi
[13:37 - 13:52] So we were producing in Nepal. We're producing in Turkey as well. We produced, uh, in Afghanistan and Pakistan, all these areas where they would take our direction and give us product that is fitting our needs and demands.

Hashem Montasser
[13:52 - 13:55] And that's still the case today. Those are production centers. Yes.

Mohamed Maktabi
[13:55 - 13:56] Okay.

Hashem Montasser
[13:56 - 14:25] And, and I find that fascinating because now you've introduced another. Part here, which is your love of art. So you, I, I have, since I've known you, you've collected art, you're very involved in the kind of arts and culture scene, and you started collaborating with artists as well. And to me, this was very interesting because many of those artists did not think of carpets, did not think of mediums outside of their traditional mediums being, you know, canvas and so on and so forth.

Mohamed Maktabi
[14:25 - 15:04] You see everything, everything happens by osmosis, especially in Beirut. In Beirut, the communities are close together. So we are close to the artists that we, so when we go to exhibitions, we meet the artists, they come to our homes, we go to their studios. And we started appearing in Beirut. People started seeing us as the carpet company that is, um, how should I say, preserving the craft of weaving. Yeah. So when I sit with Ayman Baalbeke and we, I talk about his paintings, we talk about, we talk about carpets. I say, why don't you, let's try, shall we try and do your painting into carpet?
[15:04 - 15:43] So we did the carpet for Ayman Baalbeke. We did a project called One Carpet for Love some 15 years ago, which basically we asked, we did a list of people, artists and creatives, architects, and asked them to provide us with an image of a carpet they want to produce in any shape, form, material, anything they want. And we'd produce it. And then the first. Uh, edition of this carpet would be sold and the proceeds would go for charity. So this initiative is called One Carpet for Love. We work with a lot of artists, Marwan Sahmarani. We work with, uh, Bokja.
[15:43 - 16:05] We work with Orient499. So we work with all the creative, uh, names around us in Beirut. We worked for Etel Adnan. We did her tapestries. So we have a lot of, a big roster of, uh, collaborate, uh, collaborations we did with David and Nicola. We did with Karen Chekhajian. We did a fantastic. So many, so many. So, yes. So the list goes on.

Hashem Montasser
[16:06 - 16:35] How important is that for you? Because I, Beirut is in that sense, a little village. And like you said, that sense of collaborate collaboration, collaborative spirit, uh, the sense of community amongst the people, the creative community was very high. I grew up in Cairo. It was very similar. Everybody knew each other in that community and therefore collaboration. It was like 3 fade-out conversations. It's very formal where literally, you know, yeah, Muhammad goes and has tea with her ex.

Mohamed Maktabi
[16:35 - 16:37] It's a conversation over Fingen Ahwa. Exactly.

Hashem Montasser
[16:38 - 17:15] Fingen Ahwa. Etel maybe is there or one of her associates and, well, you know, let's think about that. I'll come over. We'll talk. And I think it's something obviously we are in some ways trying to replicate or we want to create its own dynamic here in Dubai. Because I think you don't have a cohesive community and you don't have also how much The homogenous community we have. I mean, in Beirut, it's mostly Lebanese. In Egypt, it's mostly Egyptians, etc. I have a question for you, really, more than anything else. How do we try to create some of that here that's not forced, that actually is organic?

Mohamed Maktabi
[17:16 - 17:25] Not forced, you just added it at the end. Yeah, this is the most important part. No, that is the most important. The first one is simple.

Hashem Montasser
[17:25 - 17:33] I can book a lighthouse and we put it inside. That's not what I'm interested in. I'm talking about organic. Actually, I am living this now.

Other speaker
[17:33 - 17:40] As we speak, I'm living this not forced way. It's happening slowly but surely. Let me tell you why.

Mohamed Maktabi
[17:40 - 18:08] When I moved, so my business in Dubai started when we rented a shop with Dubai Mall the day Dubai Mall opened its stores. It had an Iwan Maktabi in it. So this is probably 14 years ago. I used to go back and forth, but my sister was running the Dubai operation because I was a business owner. So I was concentrating on Beirut. After the explosion, I woke up one day in Beirut. I said, I want to live in a city that's operational. It was very personal. So I up and moved to Dubai.

Hashem Montasser
[18:08 - 18:11] Big step for you. So now I spend six months.

Mohamed Maktabi
[18:11 - 18:17] You were very embedded in Beirut. I was very local. Yeah. I used to say I am in Beirut.

Hashem Montasser
[18:17 - 18:18] Who wants to come to me?

Mohamed Maktabi
[18:19 - 18:20] Sheikh Al-Omda, we all came to you.

Other speaker
[18:20 - 18:22] We all came to kiss the ring many times.

Hashem Montasser
[18:23 - 18:25] Sometimes you threw the ring. You threw it in our face, but that's okay.

Mohamed Maktabi
[18:26 - 18:30] Let's not talk about this ill-fated night, please.

Hashem Montasser
[18:31 - 18:46] Everybody, you're right. I mean, your house was somewhat of an open house. Everyone came by, a lot of friends, very, very generous. And you always came and were meet people you didn't know. I met a lot of people in your circles from the creative community, which was great.

Mohamed Maktabi
[18:47 - 19:18] Beirut is a magical place that is very generous and gives a lot. So Beirut gave us a lot. That's true. After this really painful day and after the explosion, when my house was completely destroyed and I was in the house, I decided, I felt, I felt I needed, in order for me to process all this, I needed to be just a little bit... Was it that day, Mohammad? I mean, because this explosion... No, it's actually one year to the day when we were celebrating the first, when we were commemorating the first...

Hashem Montasser
[19:18 - 19:19] That's when you left. Interesting.

Mohamed Maktabi
[19:19 - 19:36] One year explosion. This is the day I decided. I felt like the whole world. The whole world was falling on my back. I said, no, I fixed my house. I fixed my gallery. I fixed the other house. I fixed the other gallery. I fixed everything. Everything was back to normal. I said, I have to leave.

Hashem Montasser
[19:36 - 19:37] Ah, that's so interesting. Yeah.

Mohamed Maktabi
[19:37 - 20:11] So one year, literally 12 months later, I moved to Dubai, rented my place in Jumeirah, which now is like my haven. And so I started engaging with the local community here. We took a space in our circle. We called it our lab. Which is great. Yeah. Where we do our research and development, where we talk with creatives and talk about stories, how we can turn stories into carpets. And I did a project called Terminal G, Terminal Gulf, which was I picked through with a curator.
[20:11 - 20:20] I picked creatives from all over the Gulf to tell stories of modern life living in the Gulf.

Hashem Montasser
[20:20 - 20:21] That's so interesting.

Mohamed Maktabi
[20:21 - 21:01] And we launched it last year in Downtown Design. During Dubai Design Week. And we launched four collections with Sultan bin Fahd, who is a Saudi artist, with two sisters, the Bindahir sisters who are from the Emirates, with a Kuwaiti conceptual artist. Her name is Asil Al Yaqoub. And we are adding on this Terminal G. Every year we launch new collections. So how does this? So it was a bit forced because I had a curator. I gave the project a name. I identified the talent. I had the audience. We distributed the stories and asked them to translate them into carpet. How does this now is translate?
[21:01 - 21:37] How is this translating? People now. Today I notice people knock on our door or when they see you, Mohammed, you're the one that I want to see. He said, I have an idea for a carpet. So this conversation are starting by nature, normally just by meeting during a gallery opening or meeting in a dinner party. Or somebody coming inside Al Serkal and say, by the way, have a look. What do you think? Can I do this? Can I do this? So it's you have to start somewhere. So, yes, we put the initial push. That's great.
[21:37 - 21:46] But now people look, look at us as enablers of translating a vision into.

Hashem Montasser
[21:46 - 21:47] I love that idea.

Mohamed Maktabi
[21:47 - 21:48] A woven product.

Hashem Montasser
[21:49 - 22:23] That's it. I love that idea. And I like the I love the concept of storytelling. Because, I mean, art in so many ways is telling stories and giving points of view. And people don't think of carpets necessarily or the woven medium as the first medium when you think about that. So that's very interesting. And, you know, I mean. Perhaps you needed to do it this way here because you needed to almost introduce the idea into people's heads. So what we did is we kind of we kind of did what we have been doing.

Mohamed Maktabi
[22:23 - 22:41] And we did it in Beirut slowly but surely over the years. We did it in like two years. We did exhibitions. We did projects. We did lectures on carpets. We did shows of historical carpets. We showed our private collection of antique carpets. And Serkal gave us this platform.

Hashem Montasser
[22:41 - 22:44] They're fantastic like that. The space was really nice for this.

Mohamed Maktabi
[22:44 - 22:49] So people saw all of this and they made their own conclusions.

Hashem Montasser
[22:49 - 23:08] Yeah. No, I mean, I think it made sense here to have this type of work. This type of platform almost for people to understand. And also because, frankly, I have experienced this with the Lighthouse as well. We've been around for six years now. And we had to work a bit harder to create this sense of community.

Mohamed Maktabi
[23:09 - 23:30] I always say Dubai is like a millefeuille. You know, there are layers and layers. But these layers are not there are no staircases between them. That's very true. So each community is living by itself and thriving. But sometimes they are missing this. This connection. This like invasion of one layer into the other. Which happens in Cairo and Beirut.

Hashem Montasser
[23:31 - 23:46] That's very true. Yeah. I think that's very true. I am still, look, I've been living here since 2005. And until today, I still get, I get sense of communities that you know nothing about.

Mohamed Maktabi
[23:46 - 23:46] Yeah.

Hashem Montasser
[23:46 - 24:00] You know? Because it's so diverse. So many different nationalities. There are communities that congregate obviously by, you know, race and nationality and all of that. And then there's communities that are creating on lifestyle.

Mohamed Maktabi
[24:00 - 24:12] But things are changing in Dubai. Things are changing. Now I notice, for example, if I go early to my Dubai Mall shop, it opens at 10. But if I go at 9 and I walk, I see the same people.

Hashem Montasser
[24:13 - 24:14] I see the same people.

Other speaker
[24:14 - 24:15] If I go to...

Hashem Montasser
[24:15 - 24:17] That's the Dubai Mall community. Yes.

Other speaker
[24:17 - 24:21] So basically, you know what it is. I discovered that Dubai Mall is a community center.

Mohamed Maktabi
[24:21 - 24:32] People go there for their doctor, for their... It's very interesting. So it's actually a community center. Yeah. So they go for the doctor, for the pharmacy, to buy from the supermarket. So it's not just a mall.

Hashem Montasser
[24:32 - 24:35] It's not just a mall. The Mall of Emirates is the same. Yeah. So it is a community center.

Mohamed Maktabi
[24:36 - 24:54] Now, when I go to walk on the Sunset Beach where I live, now I say hello to everybody. I see people coming from Barari to walk every Saturday on the beach. So there is a community. But we just have to keep our eyes open. So now that you're going to...

Other speaker
[24:54 - 25:00] Is this... Can we talk about your plans or is that something we can't talk about? Yeah, sure. It's too late now.

Mohamed Maktabi
[25:01 - 25:05] Sure. If you push... Sorry. Sorry.

Other speaker
[25:05 - 25:06] Sorry.

Hashem Montasser
[25:07 - 25:18] When we come back, Mo and I talk about assimilating a creative community organically, why he's looking forward to the next generation of his family business, and more. That's right after this short break.

Mohamed Maktabi
[25:21 - 25:22] Welcome back.

Hashem Montasser
[25:22 - 25:35] You're listening to the Lighthouse Conversations with my guest, Mohamed Maktabi. Can we talk about your plans or is that something we can't talk about? Yeah, sure. It's too late now. Sure.

Mohamed Maktabi
[25:35 - 25:41] If you push me in the deep end, and then you ask me if I can swim. Exactly. Exactly.

Hashem Montasser
[25:41 - 25:52] So now that you are moving to Jumeirah, which I think is a great idea, by the way, because I think Dubai Mall, I'm sure for you, was a great place to start and not start. I mean, you spent, what, seven... How many years have you been there?

Mohamed Maktabi
[25:52 - 25:53] No, it's 14 years. 14 years.

Other speaker
[25:53 - 25:54] Masboud.

Hashem Montasser
[25:54 - 26:08] But I do think you need a bit of that community center concept. And I think Jumeirah obviously has very much that communal feeling. And also, I always, when I think of Maktabi, I feel like you need to be near the water and your own space.

Mohamed Maktabi
[26:08 - 26:36] You see, if I want to emulate what we did in Beirut and what we used to in our hometown, which is you go, you pick the best shop location on the best street you can afford. You have beautiful window. You put your name and you're open for business. Dubai offered us the Dubai Mall opportunity, which was really fantastic because everybody knew, like not only the UAE, all the region knew Iwan Maktabi.

Hashem Montasser
[26:36 - 26:48] Well, non-regional as well because it gives you any... Yes, everybody. I remember when we opened MOE, I always thought D3 was very edgy and cool, but that's what people know. It's like, oh, you're next to Cartier and Apple and it gives that cachet.

Other speaker
[26:48 - 26:52] And you have this sheer number of people that are walking inside the mall. Yeah, volume.

Mohamed Maktabi
[26:52 - 27:19] But I think having moved to Dubai, I felt I need my place. I need my neighborhood. I need my hood. And Jumeirah, because I live there, it's what I identify with. It has this Dubai vibe that I like and I identify with. And it was normal that we were going to move to our own standalone store in Jumeirah. And would the idea of the store there be also a space that you use for all the things you

Other speaker
[27:19 - 27:20] talked about?

Hashem Montasser
[27:21 - 27:24] Talks, seminars, events? Definitely.

Mohamed Maktabi
[27:24 - 27:34] So we're creating, but it's going to be under one roof. Absolutely. And our own... We have a flagship store in Beirut. Now we're going to have a flagship store in Dubai.

Hashem Montasser
[27:34 - 27:40] And are there plans for other flagship stores? Would you envisage more or do you feel in the region?

Mohamed Maktabi
[27:40 - 27:49] Look, I'm still young and kicking. Me too. But I have no interest in invading the world. Yeah.

Other speaker
[27:49 - 27:50] Yeah. So you're going to have a flagship store in Dubai?

Mohamed Maktabi
[27:50 - 27:50] I like that.

Hashem Montasser
[27:50 - 27:55] So let's see what life offers. It's very Wall Street 1990s to invade the world, by the way.

Other speaker
[27:55 - 27:57] I tried that and it's passé and it doesn't really work.

Hashem Montasser
[27:57 - 27:58] I like it.

Mohamed Maktabi
[27:58 - 28:06] So let us be local, let us be regional, and I think that's good enough. What do you feel you haven't explored?

Other speaker
[28:06 - 28:08] Because you are clearly someone, as I've said, that I've...

Hashem Montasser
[28:08 - 28:25] You and your sisters, frankly, have admired how you've reinvented the brand. And in fact, continues... I love that word, the sentence you use, that you put your ear to the ground and you're like... When you put your ear to the ground now, what ideas come to mind that you feel you haven't explored as a brand?

Mohamed Maktabi
[28:26 - 28:54] People are... So I'm being pushed into trying out something that has to do with furniture, with wall art, with... Something is pushing us like this, in this direction. I don't know how. I don't know how. Because hand... Hand... Handcrafted weaving is at the core of Iwan Maktoub. Yeah. But look at Bokhja.

Hashem Montasser
[28:55 - 29:08] Bokhja must have started at the opposite and moved into the reverse direction, right? So you can... So as long as it's handwoven, as long as I can keep our craftspeople alive and proud

Mohamed Maktabi
[29:08 - 29:11] of what they're doing, we can try...

Hashem Montasser
[29:11 - 29:21] Does it scare you though? Do you worry that you would... Because I remember when I saw Bokhja, and we've had them on the podcast, by the way, it was a... It was a party. Yeah. Of course. It was a party.

Other speaker
[29:21 - 29:24] The two ladies are forces of nature.

Hashem Montasser
[29:24 - 29:29] It was a party. And I cannot tell you. So I started doing couple therapy in the middle of it, and then I gave up.

Mohamed Maktabi
[29:29 - 29:32] Yes. I think it's too... I quit.

Hashem Montasser
[29:32 - 29:48] I let you guys have the rest of the conversation. You cannot... When I'm... Something else, yeah. They're fantastic. But we talked a little bit about having a core. When you start moving out of the core, it's nice and sexy, but it's also a bit scary. It's a bit scary. Because... Because...

Mohamed Maktabi
[29:48 - 30:11] It's uncharted territory, but fear is also constructive. I think... I know for myself, I work best under stress. If you leave me... Pressure. Everything is under... Yes. Under pressure, this is where I perform. If you leave me everything, like you leave me for my time and this, nothing happens. You need to squeeze me into a funnel, and then you get...

Hashem Montasser
[30:12 - 30:40] How much do you... I know you're very involved in the creative process. How much do you worry about... Turning on the lights. So one of the things that we've seen in a lot of businesses like yours that are inherently creative is creative people, frankly, don't like to look at invoices and talk to banks and do all this stuff. But for a business like yours or any business to thrive, you need both. So how do you manage this gap?

Mohamed Maktabi
[30:40 - 30:51] Look, I think I have enough confidence these days that I know that when we create something, it's something that's going to be picked up by the market.

Hashem Montasser
[30:52 - 31:11] But what if it doesn't? What happens? So let's just walk through a process. I'm just curious because I think there could be people listening to us today that are as creative as... Also creative, thinking about starting a business, and what scares them is that. You put out a product tomorrow morning, you put something, a new product, and it doesn't work. Market doesn't take to it. What happens?

Mohamed Maktabi
[31:13 - 31:13] Interesting. Yeah.

Hashem Montasser
[31:14 - 31:14] I'm just curious.

Mohamed Maktabi
[31:15 - 31:26] Yeah. I've never... You see, I've never had... Because we do handmade carpet, we don't do mass production. So you don't push a button and you have 10 tons of merchandise that you need to sell

Other speaker
[31:26 - 31:29] immediately. That's a very good point. You already have a sense.

Mohamed Maktabi
[31:29 - 32:08] So for example, we launched a collection for... I mentioned the Ruda for the Bindahir sisters. We launched four pieces, different designs, each one in one color. So there was a lot of research in this area. We did a lot of development and everything, but for the launch, we only had four pieces. I had my people already dye the wool and the silk and prepare it for orders for more. But that was the level of my commitment. Oh, for your cautious. But because this is the nature of handmade carpets, I cannot produce 1,000 square meter
[32:08 - 32:42] of carpets and then launch them. It just doesn't work this way because it takes a long time. So there was... It was received positively. So immediately, we added colors to the collection. So we had only beige, gray, and pink. Suddenly we added copper, green, and yellow, and blue. And then I said, shh, go all out. And still we cannot produce enough to have one of each carpets in Beirut store and in Dubai store. It's a handmade production. So it's never mass produced.

Hashem Montasser
[32:42 - 33:04] So does that mean that your... Because you have a commercial side to the business where you work with hospitality, hotels, restaurants, et cetera. Is that as a nature of the business less risky? Because Hashem, the lighthouse commissions you for... You know exactly what you're going to get. And there's no question of supply and demand? Or am I reading this wrong?

Mohamed Maktabi
[33:04 - 33:10] Projects definitely are more secure because you don't have to produce stock.

Hashem Montasser
[33:10 - 33:10] Muthbut.

Mohamed Maktabi
[33:11 - 33:42] So you just have to develop samples and techniques. You just have to develop samples and techniques. And then you have to go to the store. You have to go to the store. And provide the projects with a sample for them then to produce it. So from this side we love the projects side of the business. But if I have to say, something that we invest a lot in, and it's very heavy on us, it's all research and development. For example, we are swimming with a sea of samples that we don't know what to do with. More than 10,000 samples. So this is our investment.

Hashem Montasser
[33:42 - 33:44] Why don't you produce an artwork out of the samples?

Mohamed Maktabi
[33:44 - 33:54] Wallahi, I tried. Did you? I'm still one artist. I don't want to mention his name. He said, I want to do something for you using all your samples. I said, please come.

Hashem Montasser
[33:54 - 34:11] He never came back. Of course. I remember seeing this at Hermes where they use all the leather samples and they created like a line of it. It was a bit lame, but I think you can do something much cooler than that. But if you have a sample, like you have all of these samples, I'm sure there's something

Mohamed Maktabi
[34:11 - 34:26] that can be done. Our samples. Our samples. But some of them are still extremely relevant because we go back to them when we want to develop something new. But a lot of them eventually become obsolete and they're just stacked waiting for the great next idea.

Hashem Montasser
[34:29 - 34:31] How many of your sisters are involved in the business?

Mohamed Maktabi
[34:32 - 34:33] Two and a half.

Hashem Montasser
[34:33 - 34:37] Two and a half? Meskina half.

Mohamed Maktabi
[34:38 - 34:51] No, two. Shirin and Mona are fully involved. And Yasmin, who lives in Jeddah, whenever we do our pop-ups in Saudi. She's the one who takes care of everything. But when there's no pop-up. Yasmin, if you're listening to this, I'm not the one who said it.

Other speaker
[34:51 - 34:52] And he's the one who said half.

Hashem Montasser
[34:52 - 34:54] I think you're a full, 100% full.

Mohamed Maktabi
[34:55 - 34:55] She agrees.

Hashem Montasser
[34:55 - 35:05] So, okay. I'm going to say three sisters. So, this is a fourth generation, third generation business. Did you contemplate a fourth generation?

Mohamed Maktabi
[35:05 - 35:21] So, funny enough, the fourth generation adores the family business. So, there's no rejection of the business. No. I don't know. Better shrinks? I see. I don't know. I think we left a good impression on them or something.

Hashem Montasser
[35:21 - 35:31] No, because usually, you're right. You get this thing. When I reject the business, when I don't have anything to do with it. And then when they're 50, they regret that they didn't get into the business. You don't have any of this.

Mohamed Maktabi
[35:31 - 36:06] No. I feel most of my nieces and nephews actually look up to the business and have this emotional attachment and this pride in Iwan Maktabi. So, for example, I already have my niece, Roya. Who graduated as an architect and she's involved. She does research for the lab for some of the cultural weaving techniques in the region that we are looking into. My niece, Ghida, is our marketing director. So, Ghida is the fourth generation. She's the daughter of Shirin.
[36:07 - 36:24] She's going to leave the family business for a few years just to return back to us with even more knowledge. I have my nephew, Sharif, who works for Amazon in Seattle. Tell him it's very, very...

Hashem Montasser
[36:24 - 36:25] Enough Amazon.

Mohamed Maktabi
[36:25 - 36:26] He wants to... This was maybe...

Other speaker
[36:26 - 36:28] It's enough. Sharif, please come back.

Mohamed Maktabi
[36:28 - 36:41] We're getting him back. Okay, good. He loves to create products because he's a product designer. And he loves... He adores sitting with weavers on the loom. So, this is...

Hashem Montasser
[36:41 - 37:10] So, I was going to get to this weaver's point. Good hope for the fourth generation. Because your business is so... And I'm going to weave it into the conversation about this fourth generation. But the heritage element of this, preservation of heritage, is so vital, right? In the sense of these techniques. I mean, I want to hear from you. Are you seeing this being preserved, generally speaking? Are you finding it harder and harder? Are there pockets in the world where it is and others where it's neglected? And how do you think about this?

Mohamed Maktabi
[37:10 - 37:35] Yes, to all the above. So, there is an increased interest. And... In the craft of handmade carpets. Globally? It's in pockets. Okay. It's in pockets. Turkey, where we used to work with 150 villages that used to produce carpets. The number of villages has shrunk. The number of weavers has shrunk. But still, there is... The interest in the craft is still there.

Hashem Montasser
[37:36 - 37:36] And it's shrunk because?

Mohamed Maktabi
[37:36 - 37:40] But it has shrunk because of the... Because of the...

Hashem Montasser
[37:41 - 37:42] Industrialization?

Mohamed Maktabi
[37:42 - 37:55] Because of the industrialization. So, suddenly, we lost... A lot of the weavers and like big swath of villages, big numbers of villages, they all left and started working in factories and stuff like that. So, we lost...

Hashem Montasser
[37:55 - 38:00] Is it typically... Sorry, but I'll ask you. Is it typically inherited the same way you see with other techniques?

Mohamed Maktabi
[38:00 - 38:39] It can be. But it's not... It can be. But it can also be... It's, you know, from the community, people would come into weaving, then leave weaving. So, some areas, as I said, like Turkey, because of industrialization, has shrunk. Have lost a lot of their weavers. And because... So, commercially, the hand labor became super expensive. So, you move to more populated people where there are more people willing to work this craft. Because this craft is difficult. Don't get disillusioned. It's not super easy to weave carpets. It takes a lot of perseverance and patience and knowledge.
[38:39 - 38:40] And it doesn't pay much.

Hashem Montasser
[38:41 - 38:41] Yeah.

Mohamed Maktabi
[38:41 - 38:55] So, this is why we try to elevate as much as... As we can to do some carpets in limited edition or stuff like that. Just to be able to even pay more for the weaver. Do we still have pockets in the Arab world?

Hashem Montasser
[38:55 - 38:56] There are some tribes in...

Mohamed Maktabi
[38:57 - 39:15] There are very few in UAE. Some tribes in Arabia. A little bit in Jordan. But very few. Egypt still has a few weaving... Probably Egypt for local production, I'm assuming. For local production, there's very small export. But, yes, mainly for the local.

Hashem Montasser
[39:15 - 39:26] Companies like Oriental Weavers and those types of companies. It's a little sad because I feel like, you know, that is a very key component. If that dies out...

Mohamed Maktabi
[39:26 - 39:47] In the UAE, there's a lot of... There's big efforts to preserve the weaving craft. But it's very challenging for... It's very challenging in the modern way of life to have women still weaving in their homes when they are, you know, taken by... All these attractions of everyday modern life.

Hashem Montasser
[39:48 - 40:01] What do you feel, in that sense, your mission is? If you think today about your business, and you've accomplished a lot, alhamdulillah, what would you see is your mission?

Mohamed Maktabi
[40:01 - 40:16] You know, I still have a weakness for antique carpets and heirlooms. It's a good weakness. So I have a passion for always finding this rare white unicorns, of a carpet. So this is always...

Hashem Montasser
[40:16 - 40:17] And you travel for them? I travel for them.

Other speaker
[40:17 - 40:23] So you have to know where to find them, be it sometimes in auctions, sometimes in private collections,

Mohamed Maktabi
[40:23 - 40:59] sometimes when there is, like, a person dies and they want... There's an inheritance. So you have to know where these jewels are at all times. And then there is the modern production. So my passion is to create something that I'm proud of and that... When people use it, and somebody comes in the room and says, wow, what is this? So this, keep this always alive by keeping the weavers proud of what they do. I think this is...

Hashem Montasser
[40:59 - 41:07] That's amazing. Could you ever see the company not being in the family hands? I'm just curious. In these days, everything is possible.

Other speaker
[41:07 - 41:08] Everything is possible.

Mohamed Maktabi
[41:09 - 41:09] Yeah, sure.

Hashem Montasser
[41:10 - 41:16] I'm just curious. Yeah, sure, sure. I get asked this. The question in our business is much younger than yours, you know?

Mohamed Maktabi
[41:16 - 41:31] I mean, we are a carpet family, but I don't think Maktabi is the royal family of carpet. So if it flows into another, it's okay. If somebody is doing something good for the company and he's not... Okay. Holds the Maktabi name...

Hashem Montasser
[41:31 - 41:48] No, but it can also be the Maktabi name, just in, you know, a larger company comes in and wants to, you know... Yeah, sure. You see this all the time. And do you see yourself in Dubai? Is this home? I mean, home in the sense of where you want to be, not home in the sense of like...

Mohamed Maktabi
[41:48 - 42:08] Now I want to be in Dubai. That's for sure. My hometown is Beirut, and I'm always a little bit homesick for Beirut, of course. I think you also adore Cairo, even if you don't want to live there today. For sure. So, of course, we love the chaos. We love the... For five days.

Other speaker
[42:10 - 42:10] No, it's true.

Mohamed Maktabi
[42:11 - 42:15] No, but now I have my... My house in the mountain, that is a game changer.

Hashem Montasser
[42:15 - 42:16] That's different.

Mohamed Maktabi
[42:16 - 42:29] Yeah, that's a game changer. So, I just built my outdoor kitchen, and I need to go and check on it. So... I think that's a great place to end, if there's any.

Hashem Montasser
[42:29 - 42:38] We will... Please check on your outdoor kitchen with Aminna, and we're going to be very well. I'll send you pictures. Mohamed, thank you. That was a great conversation.

Mohamed Maktabi
[42:38 - 42:39] Thank you very much. Thank you so much.

Hashem Montasser
[42:41 - 43:20] If you enjoyed this episode, you'll also enjoy my conversation with some of Iwan Maktabi's collaborators, the ladies behind Bokja, Huda Baroudi and Maria Hibri, the one time my armchair therapy session went completely haywire, as well as my conversation with Milan-based Lebanese design wunderkinder, David & Nicolas. You'll find links to those episodes in our show notes. Thank you for joining me on The Lighthouse Conversations. I'm Hashim Montasser, and we're produced by Chirag Desai. You can connect with us on Instagram at thelighthouse_podcasts, for behind the scenes videos and more. Or visit us at thelighthouse.ae/podcasts to listen to all our previous episodes.